US approves sending of 31 M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine

[u/pipsdontsqueak]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/25/us-m1-abrams-biden-tanks-ukraine-russia-war

[u/autotldr]

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 73%. (I'm a bot)

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The Biden administration has approved sending 31 M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine as international reluctance to send tanks to the battlefront against the Russians begins to erode.

The news came after Germany confirmed it will make 14 of its Leopard 2A6 tanks available for Ukraine's war effort, and give partner countries its permission to re-export other battle tanks to aid Kyiv.

The US has resisted providing its own M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, citing extensive and complex maintenance and logistical challenges with the hi-tech vehicles.

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Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Ukraine^#1 tanks^#2 Abrams^#3 send^#4 more^#5

[u/king_mo_of_metal420 → u/autotldr]

Thanks buddy

[u/Frostedbutler → u/king_mo_of_metal420]

Tanks Buddy

[u/selachimorphan → u/Frostedbutler]

Sher Man.

[u/mattc0m → u/selachimorphan]

This tracks.

[u/moeburn → u/autotldr]

I find it annoying that they specify the A6 variant of the Leopard 2, but they don't tell us which M1 Abrams they're getting. 1a1? 1a2? Fancy upgrade kits?

[u/Whiteyak5 → u/moeburn]

It'll almost guaranteed be a version you find in other export variants. Such as what Iraq or Egypt uses.

They will not be getting a US version as the armor packages are Secret stuff with the DU in it.

[u/C1oudey → u/[deleted]]

We probably won’t see one in action until late spring-early summer at the earliest since they will have to train crews for the tanks

[u/RousingRabble → u/C1oudey]

Not even then. They aren't giving them tanks out of the current stock -- they are building them. From WaPo:

The U.S. tanks — to be purchased from manufacturers rather than transferred from existing American military stockpiles — will not arrive for months, if not years. Administration officials have emphasized that the M1s are part of long-range planning for Ukraine’s armed forces rather than weapons that will be put to immediate use.

[u/-AC- → u/RousingRabble]

We have stock piles of tanks sitting in the desert brand fucking new because congress refused to listen to the army to stop making them.

[u/Dependent_Release834 → u/moeburn]

You never buy the standard package. Always have to get the undercoating and the extended warranty

[u/PM_ME_PCR_MACHINES → u/Dependent_Release834]

Yeah, but I'm saying that TruCoat. You don't get it, you get oxidation problems...

[u/AdRemote9464 → u/Dependent_Release834]

Don’t forget to get the seats Scotchguarded.

[u/IntrinsicStarvation → u/moeburn]

Watch it actually just be the M1.

[u/CriticalMembership31 → u/IntrinsicStarvation]

Ukrainians: hey, there’s like 15 mm missing from this gun.

US: No there’s not lol

[u/di11deux]

Russian MoD tomorrow: “The Russian army successfully destroyed 65 Abrams tanks, 53 Leopards, 183 Bradley’s, and 16 Challengers”.

[u/Gekokapowco → u/di11deux]

"Our new anti-NATO death laser has destroyed 3 million enemy armor battalions, Putin strongly warns against further involvement from the West"

[u/constantino675]

What's the learning curve on these bad boys?

Tank personel train for years to become proficient don't they? Can you just hop into one of these and be effective? Or have Ukrainians operated something similar before?

[u/SmokingPuffin → u/constantino675]

https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/career-match/ground-forces/tanks-machinery/19k-m1-armor-crewman.html

22 weeks to become a 19k. Of course, this is for fresh recruits in peacetime conditions. One would expect a lot of compression is possible when you put experienced tankers into M1 retraining.

I doubt the available time before April is ample, but I also doubt that America would delay shipment of M1 past the point where they thought training and logistics operations could not be completed in time.

[u/MustacheEmperor → u/SmokingPuffin]

I also would not be surprised if Ukraine has already been training soldiers on these vehicles, or at least getting a head start in simulators, classroom, etc.

If the US is announcing this shipment to the public today it is not likely the Ukrainian MoD also just learned about it on CNN.

[u/6bluedit9 → u/MustacheEmperor]

I'd bet the US has already been training them, much like the rumors of Ukranians being trained on f-16s by the US.

[u/deaddonkey → u/MustacheEmperor]

At the very very least I imagine any of the top tankers who would be the obvious choices for an Abrams assignment have been given manuals to study in recent weeks.

[u/bradland → u/deaddonkey]

Exactly. It's not like they're going to be taking in guys off the street and training them on tanks. They're going to take their best, most experienced tank crews and train them on the new equipment on a compressed time table.

I'm very interested to see how Western tanks fare in this conflict. The Ukrainians have made very good use of anti-tank weaponry to make a mess out of Russian armor columns, but I'm not sure how much of this is just propaganda, or how much of it is just the new threat environment for armor.

And yes, I understand the principles of mechanized infantry, and yes, I understand that the Russians have pretty much sucked ass at this in this conflict, but Western tanks have mostly seen combat against insurgent forces.

We have seen the Abrams suffer losses in the hand of Iraqis when fighting ISIL. The losses were blamed on poor training, but the US had to fly in and clean up by bombing the disabled equipment. We won't have that option in Ukraine, so things could get interesting.

[u/stupid_mans_idiot → u/SmokingPuffin]

We should send them the Chicago Bears too. They’re experts on tanking.

[u/ltlawdy → u/stupid_mans_idiot]

Never thought I’d see the bears get railed in a tank comment section, but they deserve it

[u/FerricNitrate → u/ltlawdy]

Bears fans catching strays from a conflict on another continent

[u/GingerBeardMan1106 → u/stupid_mans_idiot]

As a Bears fan:

Ouch, and seconded.

[u/MakesTheNutshellJoke → u/stupid_mans_idiot]

Can you imagine being a Russian conscript and seeing a 6'4" 330 lb nose tackle screaming into battle? Better psychological warfare than any tank IMO.

[u/jimmybilly100 → u/MakesTheNutshellJoke]

And then Justin Fields still gets sacked

[u/CopeSe7en → u/stupid_mans_idiot]

Damn fucking annihilated.

[u/DustinAM → u/constantino675]

Never thought about this but my take from from my experience on Abrams:

Loader - A few weeks to learn how to load and work the radios.

Driver - A few weeks. Shockingly easy.

Gunner - A few months with heavy SIM and Range time.

Commander - Probably transferable from other tank knowledge

All - Maintenance will take years but contractors can/will assist, team cohesion will take a few months to get to a basic competency level. Working within a platoon, company level should be transferrable from previous training.

The ability to deal with random issues that pop up all the time will take a while. Basic operation is pretty easy but there are a thousand random issues that will render you non-mission capable. I may be underestimating how hard it is though, its been a while and we take experienced NCOs for granted.

[u/RoDeltaR → u/DustinAM]

I remember reading that there are hotlines in place for western technical support. While the conditions are not ideal, I trust them to figure out how to make it work, when your ass is on the line

[u/XxRoyalxTigerxX → u/RoDeltaR]

This reminds me of a story where a guy was in a fire fight and his Barrett M107 was not working properly after a maintenance error from the day before that damaged the ears on the lower receiver , called up Barrett's customer service while under fire and they helped him get it fixed (or at least in a operable condition) in under a minute, before he said thanks, hung up and got back to the fight

[u/Kirshnerd → u/RoDeltaR]

When most countries buy expensive equipment it comes with loads of backend support from the vendor. It's one of the ways they continue to make money off the initial sale, as well as develop a better relationship with the customer in hopes of leaving a lasting impression to get another sale down the road.

[u/Marcgo2 → u/RoDeltaR]

"Your call is important to us. Please continue to hold."

[u/Actually_JesusChrist → u/constantino675]

These will be the most motivated personnel these tanks have ever seen at least.

[u/WeedstocksAlt → u/Actually_JesusChrist]

And with 31 units, these tanks are going to the most elite Ukraine tank crews.

[u/Common_Technologies → u/Actually_JesusChrist]

Fighting for homeland in a just war AND getting the best toys.

[u/cweisspt]

Can someone who has experience in this explain to me why it is such a game changer, compared to the equipment they currently have? Sorry for my ignorance.

[u/GingerBeardMan1106 → u/cweisspt]

One of the main things is range. A commander can spot a group of enemy tanks far beyond their sight with thermal imaging. He can task each shot in quick succession, and the gunner (pun intended) executes those tasks. This occurs outside of the engagement range of russian tanks.

In addition theres a stabilizer for the barrel, allowing the Abrams to fire reliably and accurately while mobing quickly over rough terrain. For a Russian tank, in comparison, to reliably and accurately hit, it will need to stop. It can run and attempt to hit, but any deviation in the land under its tracks will mean a deciation of the barrel, altering the flight path of the shell.

Also, the armor. T- series tanks have less armor on the top and more on the sides. They also keep ammo in the same compartment as the crew. So, a javelin coming down on the tank will not only penetrate, but also ingnite the ammo. This is why we see the new Roscosmos Tank Turret Program videos. Their turrets go sky high with a complete loss of crew. The Abrams however has more armor on the top and does not have ammo stored in the crew compartment. In addition, its armor is fundamentally different. The newest ones have depleted uranium armor, but i doubt we'll send that. We'll probaby send the composite armor that has compressed ceramic tiles inside. The armor on those, while dated, is still extremely good. An RPG or a Javelin will be a non-lethal hit, and will only give away the position of troops, earning the ire of the crew.

Last but not least, the engine. People seem to think the engine runs on jet fuel. That is not the case. It has a turbine engine. These can run on basically any fuel, although fuel types will alter service intervals. You could fuel the damn thing up at speedway if you wanted. The US Army only uses jet fuel because literally anything in their military can run on it. Its easy to use one type of fuel for everything.

Basically, these tanks were designed specifically to counter Russias current stockpile. When used in conjunction with Bradleys and all the other wonderful toys we've given, like HIMARS and Javelins, theyll be a potent fighting force. The last stone Ukraine is missing in it's military infinity gauntlet is modern air support. If they receive f-15s or f-16s (which i would expect to hear in the coming months, as their were rumblings of Ukrainians being trained on them in the US a few months back) then theyll have a full complement of combined arms. What happened in desert storm would happen again, albeit on a smaller scale. History doesn't repeat, but it sure as hell rhymes.

[u/cweisspt → u/GingerBeardMan1106]

This is my favorite for most detailed answer. Thank you for some of this clarification.

[u/GingerBeardMan1106 → u/cweisspt]

Thanks. I've spent entirely too long reading up on this, and what the hangups are on sending Abrams. Most likely a good portion of the software will be stripped, so Im not 100 percent certain that the Abrams will retain its full combat capability. Even then, itll still be a very potent tank. Its also worth noting we can send a lot of these over the next few months. The US has about 8000 Abrams, which will be phased out as the new Abrams X enters production and ramp up.

[u/Pillowmaster7 → u/GingerBeardMan1106]

Also think about how this sounds to Russia, getting their ass kicked already and then finding out one of the best tanks is going to be on your front doorstep next week. Really makes you want to stop fighting

[u/mineservos → u/Pillowmaster7]

It won't make Russia want to stop fighting, but when they see that the aging US hardware being sent to Ukraine is stomping their ass and being replaced by newer, better hardware, it oughta make everyone feel a little better about the future outcome (except Russia).

[u/GMN123 → u/mineservos]

Or that there are another 8000 where these 31 came from

[u/YukariYakum0 → u/Pillowmaster7]

A lot of Russia's planning has been based on the notion of waiting for the west to get tired of supplying Ukraine. This is the signal that says that isn't going to happen. The Kremlin is probably buzzing like a poked beehive right now.

[u/SunTzu- → u/YukariYakum0]

Putin can't really back down. If he does, he shows just how weak he is and that's unacceptable for an autocrat. Which means he's going to keep sending people to die until his insiders turn on him. This can be tricky, since he's very aware of this threat and there's every indication he's been going above and beyond to isolate himself from any internal threats. Which means it might come down to the military leadership turning on him and seizing control of the country whether he's ever captured/killed or not.

[u/Sangloth → u/SunTzu-]

I disagree. Iraq's army was destroyed in the first gulf war. Iraq as a nation was sanctioned hard and suffered greatly, but Sadaam himself was never in any danger.

I don't see Putin being ousted by popular discontent of a retreat. I suspect most Russians would be happier if he did.

The Russian government is led by a bunch corrupt officials with competing personal interests. There is no heir apparent. If Putin died or was removed from power it would turn into a Battle Royale bloodbath real quick. Whoever came out on top would need to eliminate their opponents and install their own men. The leadership may be deeply unhappy with the invasion, but killing or ousting Putin would put their own wealth and lives in extreme danger.

Edit: I should add, killing Putin doesn't fix most of Russia's problems. The sanctions are likely to continue until Russia pays reparations to Ukraine. Foreign companies aren't going to return any time soon. I suspect many Russian professionals aren't going to return. Europe as a whole is still going to move away from dependence on Russian oil.

[u/Yvaelle → u/Pillowmaster7]

Of all the modern MBT's in the world, the Leopard and Abrams are the top 2, and both are now going to Ukraine, with more likely on the way in future announcements.

Prior to the Ukraine War, the Russian T-14 Armata was supposed to be their top-tier entry, with demonstrations suggesting they had comparable capabilities. But during this war, the T-14's have either not been fielded at all, or have been destroyed like any other Russian tank. So something is probably wrong with them - like almost everything else Russian-made lately.

The Leopard and Abrams both have upgrade programs in the works right now (to Panther and Abrams X), but they're still the best MBT's.

[u/SirHebington → u/cweisspt]

One thing /u/GingerBeardMan1106 forgot to add. Both the Abrams and the Leo fire projectiles strong enough to take out any russian tank except the Armata (which we will probably not see in Ukraine) in one hit, even from the front.

While both having armor strong enough to in theory even withstand a direct hit by a russian tank.

They are superior in basically every category to the russian tanks. Of course an elite crew with worse hardware will probably win over amateurs in the superior one. We will see how well the Ukrainian forces can handle the tanks.

[u/OverlyBilledPlatypus → u/SirHebington]

Didn’t Russia already send over a one of a kind prototype tank the T-80UM2 only for it to get destroyed early last year?

[u/EvilPretzely → u/OverlyBilledPlatypus]

You are correct

[u/OverlyBilledPlatypus → u/EvilPretzely]

Genius level move right there. Shows the desperation.

[u/Adventurous_Ad6698 → u/SirHebington]

IIRC, part of the reason Desert Storm was so successful and quick was because the Abrams were destroying A LOT of Iraqi (Soviet built) tanks as they were literally rolling through and kicking their asses. The US only lost a few tanks (some to friendly fire or self-sabotage to keep from falling into enemy hands) and I think nobody in any tanks died from engagements with Iraqi tanks. It much destroyed Iraq's ability to wage a ground offensive ever again because they destroyed so much armor. Of course, there was a lot of death being rained down from the skies before and during the offensive as well, but the overall speed was due to how well the tanks performed in kind of shitty conditions.

[u/SpecialistAardvark → u/Adventurous_Ad6698]

The Battle of 73 Easting is a crazy read. 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment went up against an Iraqi force of comparable size. US forces ended the battle with 6 KIA, 19 wounded, one destroyed APC and zero lost tanks. The Iraqis ended with somewhere between 600-1000 casualties, 1300 troops captured, 160 destroyed tanks, 180 destroyed APCs, and a laundry list of miscellaneous losses. Quite probably the most one-sided tank battle in history.

[u/esPhys → u/GingerBeardMan1106]

these tanks were designed specifically to counter Russias current stockpile

Imagine lying about your capabilities for decades. Having a better funded enemy developing and equipping their military specifically to counter the hyped up version of your military, and then actually getting into a fight with them for no reason. It reminds me of that Chinese MMA fighter Xu Xiaodong who fights the undefeated kung fu masters and destroys them.

Updated to add the name of the MMA fighter, because fuck the CCP for trying to ruin his life just for being right and exposing frauds.

[u/ThatSmallFighter → u/esPhys]

While the financial impact of corruption on Russia's scale can't be completely hidden, the impact it appears to have on combat ability can be mitigated by shifting around enough workable equipment and adequately trained personnel to make the exercises observed by top generals look good. And thus the generals think their whole army is as combat ready and capable as the top performing units used in those exercises, while we can see that was far from the effectiveness of the average Russian unit.

[u/OrinZ → u/ThatSmallFighter]

Oh I know this one! Potemkin villages!

[u/Fresh-Temporary666 → u/esPhys]

To be fair after everybody just rolled over and did the usual sanctions when they took Crimea I think they were banking on them doing the same when they took the rest. I'm sure if Putin was actually able to see the cluster fuck he was about to initiate he would have hesitated. This has been a fucking disaster for them.

[u/riskbreaker23 → u/Fresh-Temporary666]

You're absolutely right. He saw how Germany essentially shrugged their shoulders and carried on. He saw half assed sanctions by the US. I'm positive he expected a worse response from the west but that we'd fall to infighting and an inconsistent response. Russia was practically gleeful about Germany and the US hemming and hawing over the tanks. So I'm sure finally having Germany coming around to sending leopards and the US sending Abrams is a real kick in the ass for Russia this week.

[u/Rattlingjoint → u/esPhys]

Exactly. Russias big bluff that was called was the quality of its weapons.

Russia had 13,000 tanks at its disposal pre Feb 2022. On paper thats an impressive armada, but what it omits is the quality of each tank. So Russias rolls out a bunch of t-90s which are fundamentally inferior to many other tanks of the world due to cheaper parts, glaring design flaws and poor construction quality.

The Soviet arms race was to keep pace with the U.S., but only on paper, hence why we call them the paper army.

[u/gingerbread_man123 → u/esPhys]

Poor private Conscriptovich.......

[u/[deleted] → u/esPhys]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/Kinolee → u/[deleted]]

I guess I'm out of the loop on this one -- anyone have an informative link, or even just a name to get me started?

Edit: thanks y'all!

[u/The4th88 → u/Kinolee]

A completely mediocre and middle aged chinese MMA fighter had enough of traditional martial arts masters claiming that they were great fighters, or could do no touch knock outs or whatever other bullshit they were peddling.

So he started challenging them to fights. The fights were completely one sided stompings where he completely mauled them.

However, showing the shortcomings of traditional chinese martial arts is considered unpatriotic or whatever by the chinese govt, so the fighter started getting consequences from the govt for doing this.

His name is Xu Xiaodong.

[u/Iohet → u/Kinolee]

I can't find one, but the gist is he goes around challenging the Chinese versions of Steven Seagal to fights and posts the videos on social media after he beats them. This is apparently shameful and the Chinese government has clamped down on his ability to travel internationally and domestically. This was a few years back, no idea what the guy is doing now

[u/GeoWilson → u/Iohet]

He has a YouTube channel where he talks about mma and his experiences.

https://youtube.com/@xuxiaodong1979

Edit: typo

[u/ModestMonty → u/Kinolee]

https://youtu.be/LZ6j0i0LxNo

[u/AngryCarGuy → u/Kinolee]

Xu xiaodong.

You're about to see some of the greatest ass-whoopings of our generation lol.

[u/Husk1es → u/GingerBeardMan1106]

Most modern Russian tanks are stabilized. Where the Abrams far exceeds them is in the fire control system, where only the most modern Russian tanks can match.

Also, only M1A2 and newer tanks feature a CITV (Commanders Independent Thermal Viewer). If Ukraine ends up with M1A1s, they won't have that capability.

I think I should also mention the Abrams has relatively thin roof armor. It would absolutely not tank a Javelin. But, the difference here, as you mentioned, is the ammo stowage, as Russian MBTs store it below the crew compartment in a carousel for the autoloader, whereas the Abrams is in the back of the turret with blowout panels.

[u/VeganesWassser → u/GingerBeardMan1106]

Good summary, but Javelin can penetrate Abrahms both frontaly and in top attack mode. It has an estimated 700-800mm of penetration vs Abrahms ~600-700mm in the front and roughly 150 on top. The newer Abrahms could maybe survive a frontal Konkurs or Fagot hit but even that is debatable.

However you are right that blowout pannels do increase crew survivability so we wont see turret tossing competitions like with T-72,80 and 90

[u/C-c-c-comboBreaker17 → u/GingerBeardMan1106]

An RPG or a Javelin will be a non-lethal hit, and will only give away the position of troops, earning the ire of the crew.

A javelin would still obliterate an Abrams.

[u/Superbunzil → u/cweisspt]

No need to apologize we all have a level of ignorance

Game changer is generally speaking Ukraine currently has been fighting with armored vehicles 1 generation behind Russia at best but have still made headway

These new western armored vehicles are at their worst are peer level strength to Russia's and at their best flatly superior

[u/easy_Money → u/Superbunzil]

These new western armored vehicles are at their worst are peer level strength to Russia's and at their best flatly superior

spoiler, it's the latter.

[u/Callewag → u/easy_Money]

Yep - apparently superior in speed, range, strength when hit and are more accurate at firing. A pretty major cut above.

[u/aaronhayes26 → u/Superbunzil]

No need to be timid about it. These western tanks were designed specifically to defeat Russian tanks.

Results will no doubt be dependent on how well we can train these guys to run and maintain the equipment. But the tanks themselves are flatly superior.

[u/Susan-stoHelit → u/aaronhayes26]

And so far everything we’ve trained them on, they’ve been massively impressive in their commitment, speed of learning, and adapting it to their country.

[u/BABarracus → u/Susan-stoHelit]

They are fighting for their home so its a huge motivation

[u/Mike-Poncho]

Go Abrams. Go do what you were originally disigned to do.

[u/ShadowReij → u/Mike-Poncho]

Abrams tanks: "Brothers, we are free to perform our prime directive. Onwards!"

[u/Oraxy51 → u/ShadowReij]

Idk why I read this in a Dalek voice but now I can’t change how I read it

[u/Spykron → u/Oraxy51]

Nah that’s an Adeptus Astartes voice

[u/Lucius-Halthier → u/Spykron]

FOR THE EMPEROR!

Leeman russ barrels through enemy lines

[u/willstr1 → u/Oraxy51]

I heard it in the voice of Liberty Prime

[u/just_a_T114 → u/willstr1]

Democracy is non-negotiable!

[u/Pliny_the_middle → u/Mike-Poncho]

Kill Russians in woodland camo.

[u/Scruffy_Quokka → u/Pliny_the_middle]

Been waiting 40 years for this moment.

[u/rupiefied → u/Scruffy_Quokka]

Eminem lose yourself starts playing

[u/EmergencyCucumber905 → u/rupiefied]

They'll be turned into mom's spaghetti

[u/lutinopat → u/Scruffy_Quokka]

Its about 1000 miles east and 40 years later than expected.

[u/Hourslikeminutes47 → u/Mike-Poncho]

They are going to decimate what's left of Russia's invasion forces

[u/KayNynYoonit]

So they now have Abrams, Chally 2s, Leo 2s, CV90s and Bradleys.

Oh boy. Russia is not gunna have a fun time.

[u/Stoly23 → u/KayNynYoonit]

I don’t envy the Ukrainian maintenance crews that have to learn to repair all of those. But yeah, hopefully it’ll all be worth it.

[u/Dblstandard → u/Stoly23]

Just think about how marketable the maintenance guys are going to be after this. Lol

[u/Mortar_Maggot → u/Dblstandard]

Poland and Ukraine will be the tank depots of Europe after this.

[u/MyNoPornProfile → u/Mortar_Maggot]

and after this war having all that equipment and knowledge should help Ukraine's case to be a part of NATO. They will know how to use, equip and maintain high end NATO equipment

Being invaded also helps their case infinitely

[u/KazumaKat → u/MyNoPornProfile]

As much as I hate the idea, Ukraine will have a future for being the source of valid modern-day warfighting experience and training for the next generation or two because of this war, and from there can build up to become a fearsome military power in the region.

And farmers, dont forget Ukraine's one of the major bread baskets of the world.

[u/Ok_Breakfast9531 → u/KazumaKat]

This is not unlike Israel’s rise as the pre-eminent warfighting experts at opposing soviet doctrine and equipment in the late 20th century. There’s a reason the most kills by F-15s and F-16s belong to the IAF.

[u/Boristhespaceman → u/Stoly23]

They'll just ship damaged vehicles over the border into Poland where nato crews are waiting.

[u/PartyLikeAByzantine → u/Boristhespaceman]

For major stuff? Sure, express that tank or engine back to NATOland. There's still a lot of minor things that wear out constantly and getting spares for them will be complicated.

Like, no country on earth is running half as many distinct tank families (nevermind individual models) as Kyiv is going to.

[u/giritrobbins → u/PartyLikeAByzantine]

Express and tanks aren't words that go together.

[u/jagdthetiger → u/PartyLikeAByzantine]

The crews would be trained for specific tasks, and the depth maintenance would be generic enough that it should be fairly simple to follow a manual to do something like an engine change. Breaking track and changing wheels is fairly simple. The main field maintenance issue i see is with challenger 2’s suspension, but even thats not too complicated

[u/Haha_goofy_updoot → u/jagdthetiger]

not to mention a lot of US stuff is meant to be repaired by teenagers in dusty 3rd world countries so it won't be too hard.

[u/Actually_Rich → u/Stoly23]

I wonder if this is going to create a positive cultural stereotype in the future, where everyone just assumes Ukrainians mechanics can fix anything they lay their hands on.

[u/MaimedJester → u/Actually_Rich]

Ah you know how to fix that and that, what are you French Foreign Legion?

No, just Ukrainian kindergarten teacher.

[u/PM_YOUR_PUPPERS → u/MaimedJester]

"I am the neighbor who always bangs on the radiator"

[u/DVariant → u/Actually_Rich]

I wonder if this is going to create a positive cultural stereotype in the future, where everyone just assumes Ukrainians mechanics can fix anything they lay their hands on.

If you’ve seen Ukrainian industry post-USSR, this is kinda already true. Their economy had some major problems, but there’s absolutely no lack of technical ingenuity and sophistication there.

[u/Dragonsandman → u/DVariant]

I wouldn’t be surprised if the same can be said for practically the entire former eastern bloc

[u/Clemen11 → u/KayNynYoonit]

120mm is both the barrel size of a Leopard 2, and the diameter of the Russian Army's asshole after the Ukrainians shove it where the sun don't shine

[u/Amazing-Yam6514 → u/Clemen11]

That’s about the diameter of a pineapple

[u/point-virgule → u/Amazing-Yam6514]

I understood that reference

The reference

[u/FisforFAKE → u/point-virgule]

“You’re snerious…..?”

[u/Coulrophiliac444 → u/point-virgule]

If Hitler gets pineapples, let's give Putin a Durian.

[u/throwawaypervyervy → u/KayNynYoonit]

Here's that whole bouquet of fucky-wuckys you ordered last year!

[u/TonyNevada1]

Is 31 a lot?

[u/Turtledonuts → u/TonyNevada1]

In one battle in the Gulf war, 9 M1A1 tanks killed 28 tanks, 16 IFVs, and 30 trucks in 23 minutes with no losses.

It's the tank with the best combat record of the modern age.

[u/TonyNevada1 → u/Turtledonuts]

Dayummmm

[u/Clemen11 → u/TonyNevada1]

In short, it is a fuck load.

[u/nibbles200 → u/Clemen11]

That being said, it’s practically a rounding error to us inventories, which is mind boggling.

[u/AJ91200 → u/Turtledonuts]

Here's a breakdown of the tank battle in question. Even though they were ambushed and outnumbered 3 to 1, the Abrams tanks wiped out the enemy force with no losses.

[u/MysteriousMinion → u/TonyNevada1]

It's pretty damn decent considering how Russia is having to field obsolete tanks. And it's 31 American tanks but also roughly another 100 from Europe and large amounts of other fighting vehicles. With the tactics and control that Ukraine has been displaying (with American help behind the scenes) these tanks will pack one hell of a punch

[u/0pimo]

Need room in the warehouse for the new model.

[u/ghostinthewoods → u/0pimo]

According to my older brother, who's former army and still got friends in, scuttlebutt is they're getting the SEP-3V

[u/roguebananah → u/ghostinthewoods]

Screw the Russians over

Upgrade the insane size of the US Military

Sounds like the best ROI I can think of given we’re gonna upgrade them anyway

[u/East_Beach_7533 → u/roguebananah]

They were literally built to kill soviet tanks in Eastern Europe. They should send every single tank to the retirement party

[u/IMovedYourCheese → u/East_Beach_7533]

That's exactly what I was thinking. US armories are full of weapons purpose-built for Soviet armies of the 60s. Well guess what, we have a Soviet army from the 60s trying to take over Ukraine right now.

[u/doglywolf → u/IMovedYourCheese]

lmao its so true though . from the Marvs to the machine guns a good 30% of their gear is 5 decades too old lol

[u/napleonblwnaprt → u/ghostinthewoods]

If they get anything other than the old M1A1s the USMC just got rid of I will be extremely surprised

[u/RousingRabble → u/napleonblwnaprt]

From WaPo:

The U.S. tanks — to be purchased from manufacturers rather than transferred from existing American military stockpiles — will not arrive for months, if not years. Administration officials have emphasized that the M1s are part of long-range planning for Ukraine’s armed forces rather than weapons that will be put to immediate use.

[u/imdatingaMk46 → u/RousingRabble]

Yeah, that makes sense. We have an export version for a reason.

[u/CD_4M → u/RousingRabble]

Ok this is extremely significant and I’ve not seen this anywhere else. Mainstream news is making it seem like these are on the way

[u/bsoto87 → u/0pimo]

They axed the USMC armored corp. that’s probably where they are getting the tanks from

[u/FIRSTFREED0CELL → u/bsoto87]

The US has thousands of M1 hulls in storage. They need overhaul and systems, but that is a heck of a lot easier than making hulls. And refurbishment of those hulls is how they create the new models of the M1 - they are constantly cycling hulls through overall.

Picture https://i.redd.it/jaml151envv81.jpg from https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/uccwfc/american_m1_abrams_tanks_are_in_storage_in_total/

Satellite view: https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B011'42.0%22N+120%C2%B008'24.0%22W/@40.1953916,-120.1402493,762m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d40.195!4d-120.14

Nobody claims these are operation tanks AFAIK. But they certainly can be refurbished. The US has about 2,000 in service, Egypt has 1000, Saudi Arabia has 400, etc. etc. Sending 31 and backfilling isn't a big deal.

[u/msprang → u/FIRSTFREED0CELL]

Wow, Egypt has way more than I thought.

[u/weirdkittenNC]

And the Ukrainian army logistics chief descended further into stress induced madness.

[u/Captain_Smartass_]

Plus 80/90 Leopard 2 tanks, that's bad news for the Russians 👌

[u/trekie88 → u/Captain_Smartass_]

And the 14 challenger 2s

[u/adashko997 → u/trekie88]

Not to mention the hundreds of lighter vehicles by Canada, Sweden, France and the US. Damn, this is huge.

[u/miamigrandprix → u/adashko997]

And Slovakia just announced it is ready to give 30 soviet T-72s to Ukraine. Not as good as Western tanks, but still helpful

[u/xenoghost1 → u/miamigrandprix]

soviet tank well maintain is better than soviet tank poorly maintained.

and intimidate the Russian conscripts just as much.

[u/SomeGuyNamedPaul → u/xenoghost1]

I'll bet you the Slovakian-maintained ones have turrets that can turn and stuff, that right there makes them more useful.

[u/Miraclefish → u/SomeGuyNamedPaul]

And they'll have fuel in them!

[u/michaelfkenedy → u/miamigrandprix]

Morrocco as well I think

[u/HerbaciousTea → u/miamigrandprix]

T-72s are probably the best option for the immediate situation, because they already have training and logistics in place to support them. They can be put into operation about as fast as they can be physically transferred to Ukraine.

It's going to be months before the training, maintenance, recovery, and supply operations are in place to put western tanks on the field, so soviet tanks donated by post-soviet states are definitely needed in the interim.

[u/kachol → u/miamigrandprix]

T-72s upgraded, maintained and fitted with the latest technology possible. More than helpful. This is going to be a Russian shit-kicking coalition.

[u/curious3247 → u/Captain_Smartass_]

UK - 14 Challenger 2 battle tanks,

Germany - 14 Leopard 2 tanks (Arriving within 3 months),

Poland - 14 Leopard 2 tanks,

USA - 31 Advanced M1 Abrams tanks,

Portugal - 4 Leopard 2 tanks

Spain, Norway and Finland also said that they are going to send their own Leopard tanks but they are currently weighing the numbers.

Also, Netherlands is considering to buy 18 Leopard 2 tanks from Germany and providing them to Ukraine as they don't own any.

[u/Sky_HUN → u/curious3247]

I kinda feel bad for the technicians and logistic guys/girls. So many different systems. Damn...

I'm sure they will do their best though to keep those mean machines operational.

[u/curious3247 → u/Sky_HUN]

Yes, the hardest part is maintenance of these tanks especially the US Abrams. They will also need to train Ukrainians.

[u/RiskyID → u/curious3247]

We trained the war-worn Iraqi army on how to maintain the M1A2 Abrams in less than 6mos, this will be absolutely no problem.

[u/roamingandy → u/curious3247]

Ukrainian army is going to be next level after they win this war. The are going to have insane knowledge of so many systems. They're going to be a hub of military expertise, probably going to be making a whole lot of money training and consulting other nations.

[u/Brodellsky → u/roamingandy]

And unlike Afghanistan, Ukraine has a strong national identity, so it's actually worth the trouble because they are actually gonna stick around.

[u/Jmoseph → u/curious3247]

USA - 31 Advanced M1 Abrams tanks

Which variant? No mention in the article and your comment suggests its a new one?

[u/haljordan68 → u/curious3247]

Estonia just shipped their entire artillery compliment to Ukraine

[u/shibafather → u/haljordan68]

Of one caliber, not all of their howitzers. 152 or 155mm, can't remember

[u/GMFPs_sweat_towel → u/shibafather]

155mm

[u/71nobody → u/Captain_Smartass_]

Gonna fuck those Russian tanks up

[u/sicariobrothers → u/Captain_Smartass_]

And all of them take NATO shells so less relying on soviet era stock piles.

[u/Zalack]

Russian bots gonna make this thread a battlefield since it's the only one they have the technology to fight on anymore.

[u/OppositeYouth → u/Zalack]

Hey, if Russia is so worried about these tanks they can field their super duper advanced T-14

[u/UniquesNotUseful → u/OppositeYouth]

First they have to ask Ukraine to give it back.

[u/tdwesbo → u/UniquesNotUseful]

And put some gas in it. And fix the starter. And show them how to turn off the parking brakes. And so on…

[u/Badger118 → u/[deleted]]

They deployed some to Syria and they were quickly withdrawn after issues were found

[u/huhwhat90 → u/OppositeYouth]

With super advanced, super light corrugated fiberboard armor!

[u/koryaa → u/OppositeYouth]

Not sure if it can make it to Ukraine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYXjkpHKnGw

Also there are only like 14 of these in service.

[u/Karl___Marx → u/koryaa]

A very powerful parking brake. That's about all we know.

[u/warenb → u/OppositeYouth]

Even the tankies in their own subreddit admit that they don't have enough to use.

[u/ilovehockeymoms → u/warenb]

It doesnt work. That tank is far too advanced for Russia.

[u/ToAlphaCentauriGuy → u/warenb]

What hopium sub is that?

[u/TylerBourbon → u/Zalack]

This just in, Russia has destroyed 60 of the 31 Abrams tanks. Truly mighty is their army. /s

[u/ExParrot1337 → u/TylerBourbon]

Early reports suggest at least 250 Leopard 2A6 tanks are already smouldering wrecks with another dozen captured in pristine condition.

[u/Reselects420 → u/Zalack]

I don’t even see Russian bots now. Just some actual morons with a post history suggesting they’re American.

[u/asdfasdfasdfas11111 → u/Zalack]

Honestly it seems like it is more Indians these days who refuse to come to terms with the fact that "straddling the line" on genocide is just supporting genocide.

[u/Kekoa_ok]

Man by the end of this Ukraines not only gonna rip Russia a new one but have the most diverse fleet of ground vehicles in Europe

[u/Vo0d0oT4c0 → u/Kekoa_ok]

What I think will be super interesting is how well they hold up the logistics chains for so many different vehicles. It’s one thing to support hundreds of the same tank or IFV. A completely different challenge to support tanks and IFVs from all over the place.

[u/Barisman → u/Vo0d0oT4c0]

Germany already said it would perform leopard maintenance so I presume also help them with spare parts logistics and planning in the field. NATO helps with pretty much everything without putting boots on the ground so far... At least officialy perhaps there are some special forces that we don't know of

[u/meeetttt]

I guess EA needs to alter the "Only in Battlefield" phrase.

[u/lbvfc]

As a ukrainian I would like to say: Thank you, friends. We'll never forget that.

[u/joe_blogg → u/lbvfc]

oh also - isn't it Zelenskyy's birthday ? what a birthday gift.

now i'm trying to remember someone else's birthday how was gifted a fire on a bridge.

[u/Effroyablemat → u/joe_blogg]

Zelenskyy gets tanks for his birthday while Putin got a broken bridge for his.

[u/DragoonDM → u/Effroyablemat]

And... a fucking tractor from Lukashenko.

[u/Voyager081291 → u/lbvfc]

🤜🤛 Hell yeah Brother. 🇺🇦🇫🇷🇬🇧🇺🇲🇵🇱🇩🇪 🇦🇱🇧🇪🇧🇬🇨🇦🇭🇷🇨🇿🇩🇰🇪🇪🇬🇷🇭🇺🇮🇸🇮🇹🇱🇻🇱🇹🇱🇺🇲🇪🇳🇱🇲🇰🇳🇴🇵🇹🇷🇴🇪🇸🇹🇷🇫🇮🇸🇪

[u/zukeen → u/Voyager081291]

Slovakia 🇸🇰, a NATO member, is in top 6 supporters when we consider GDP and it still didn’t make your list 🤌🤌🤌

• just in: they are discussing transferring Slovak Mig29s and 30x T-72.

[u/wrestlingfan007 → u/lbvfc]

They kinda pull to the left so make sure you compensate when blowing up Fascists for the world :)

[u/DanteandRandallFlagg]

A huge part of the US military budget was meant to fight a war against Russia in eastern Europe. It's nice to see it being used for its intended purpose.

[u/Rivster79 → u/DanteandRandallFlagg]

At a fraction of the cost and with no US military lives.

[u/Usual-Wasabi-6846]

GAS TURBINE SUPREMACY

[u/Smaugb]

The UK announcing that they are sending Challengers seems to have unlocked the whole tank tier of equipment upgrades.

[u/Erenito]

GG everyone

[u/DammitChris]

Disrespectfully, get fucked Putin.

[u/MrDrumline → u/DammitChris]

I can't wait for the videos of a $9 million American MBT bullying the shit out of a rusted piece of junk T62.

[u/itlynstalyn]

As if Russia wasn’t already fucked.

[u/Mizral]

Wow more than I thought.

Anybody with some insight on these tanks, does Russia have a reasonable counter to these guys? Will their anti tank weapons actually stop these mfers?

[u/Hoyarugby → u/Mizral]

Yes, these are a big deal more because their optics and fire control systems are much better than anything Ukraine is fielding (thermal sights by default, for example). But no tank is immune to being killed by ATGMs or other tanks - the armor is just about reducing the probability of a penetrating hit. Leopard 2s were killed by ISIS and PKK ATGMs in Syria because the Turks operated them arrogantly and didn't work closely with their infantry. Older models of Abrams were lost by the Iraqis and Saudis against ISIS and the Houthis, respectively

[u/DustinAM → u/Mizral]

RPGs can cause a mobility kill (knocking off tracks and wheels), big IEDs will do a lot of damage and there are definitely some anti-tank weapons that can punch through the armor (happened in Iraq but rarely), you can make the terrain impassable or bottleneck them pretty well. Realistically, you try to stop them vs "blow them up" and it can certainly be done.

From the front though, these things are really hard to deal with, even for us. They are fast, really well armored, have a big, accurate gun and come with 2-3 machine guns on top of that.

These numbers are not enough to do damage across the whole front but if they surprise someone they will be routed before they know what happened (if Ukraine knows what they are doing)

[u/johnnygrant]

Putin say he invaded Ukraine cos he didn't want NATO military gear close.

Now he will continue to get NATO military gear all up close and personal.

Once the military assistance gets to level F-16s + JDAMs, then they are really in trouble.

The whole attrition thing won't work either, the fact that the West is running relatively low on basic assistance like 155mm shells etc that they can spare is part of the reason for the escalation to other forms of support. If they start running lower on tank ammunition, then the big boys come out...airpower. And they won't run out of that until Russia runs back to Mordor.

[u/implodedrat]

Nice to see the whole team get together. All these tanks that were explicitly designed to fight Russia in Europe are finally getting their chance. As a tank enthusiast im excited to see how they all do.